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[Karenza McCullough]

The recent post about Amish month has had me thinking.  Sure, I know it was meant as an April's fool joke.  But is it really funny when we make fun of an entire culture by reducing them to a "drab fashion show?"

When I think about the Amish, I think about the rocking chair and bookcase that I have at home.  Both were made by the Amish and are easily the nicest pieces of furniture I own.  Then I also remember that horrible shooting in 1997 when a man took Amish school girls hostages and killed five of them.  What did the Amish do?  The brought food and comfort to the man's widow and children, and they forgave the man who killed their own.  For anyone whose religious beliefs or philosophy require forgiveness, those Amish are a humbling example of forgiveness in action.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1002/p09s02-coop.html

I do not go through life looking to take offense, and I might have said nothing.  But this, in my opinion, totally tasteless joke came on the heels of a tiny turning Tiananmen Square into a punchline.  Never mind that this location was a sight of bloody repression by the Chinese government against its own citizens for seeking democractic reforms.  Hundreds up to a possible several thousand died and an unknown number were imprisoned.  Here's a sight that features the famous picture of a young man staring down a tank:  http://www.chinasupport.net/CSN/history.aspx.  It doesn't take much searching to find any number of write ups and news reports about the event.

So if tinies are cute and silly, does that give us carte blanche to make fun of anyone or anything?  Clearly I think the answer is no.  What about you?

Ren

[Catten Carter]

Yea it's ok. It's a culture so unlike SL (just the use of computers for virtual worlds) that it in it self is comical. It's not making fun of the culture, it's making fun of the HUGE difference there is between the two.

It's not a joke on anyones behalf, just a joke as it's the extreme opposite to us here.

[Zayn Till]

  But this, in my opinion, totally tasteless joke came on the heels of a tiny turning Tiananmen Square into a punchline. 

Huh? Wha..?  I know I haven't been on to much due to RL but.. Did I miss something? Tiananmen Square punchline wot? The Oriental Mardi Grass?


I enjoyed the Amish April Fools joke, I have nothing but respect for those folks and Didn't feel it was anything that might be considered demeaning. I think it's all about Intent and context and Cattens perspective is a nice general summary.


Sorry this has upset you Karenza. : /

[Isolde]

I've been pondering this thread.

I find myself challenged to understand either the original notice or the subsequent response in terms of "humor."

The notice itself singled out a class of people, isolated three aspects of their culture, and meanly jabbed at them.  It's a little tough to accept that "drab fashion show" is anything but a rude invective aimed at a group of people who are classified in a single way.  Let's set aside the fact that many Amish people leave that community before joining their Church and quite conceivably a handful are running around Second Life (i.e. we don't know we didn't insult someone with an Amish background). 

That feels, to me at least, like an '-ism.'  Classism.  Racism.  Sexism.  They all share the same aspect - pick on a group of people who are different from us for the simple reason that they are different from us.

In fact, the replies on this thread and in group chat express exactly that sentiment.   A few of the highlights are:

    "We're just making fun because they are SO different."

    "It's a joke if everyone in earshot laughs."


Those are dangerously short-sighted and depressingly insensitive statements.  We cannot be a society of equals and still consider race, class, or gender based humor acceptable.

Ask yourself:  what if YOU were in the class that the author of that notice decided to abuse?

Consider the ways we could be SO different -

Most of us will never be seriously or terminally ill.  What if the notice said "let's get together, pretend we're exhausted all the time, and have a hospital gown fashion show?"

   Would it still be funny?

Statistically, most of us aren't from Alabama.  What if the notice said "let's all gain tons of weight, pretend to marry our siblings, and have a hound dog breeding festival?"

   Would it still be funny?

We're a broadly diverse racial mix but what if the notice said "let's all act like we immigrated illegally, pretend to have a lot of unwed teenage mothers, and speak poorly phrased Spanglish?"

   Would it still be funny?


It is not.  It's not funny to pick on people for their differences.   It's easy to say "Yeah, but come on Isolde!  No Amish people are on here so they can't be insulted like sick people, Alabamans, and foreigners!"

In a culture of acceptance, they shouldn't have to be here for this to be wrong.  We should be insulted on their behalf.   If for no other reason than this - once it becomes "ok" to use class, gender, or race as a basis for humor, you will never know when YOUR class, gender, or race will be the next target.

I think I would be less concerned if this were an isolated incident; everyone gaffes from time to time - it is part of being human.  However, it comes very much on the heels of another profoundly insensitive incident.

The following statement was made in group chat during Oriental Mardi Gras (FYI, I have a screen shot of this for anyone who would like to see, just IM me in world):

"Kung-Fu Panda at 7pm.  Be there or be Tienneman [sic] Square!"

This is breathtakingly insensitive to a massive humanitarian crisis during which people DIED trying to forge a better life for themselves.  How is it considered acceptable to have Raglan Shire be seen as an organization that will make light of dead Chinese people?

Or is it OK because there probably aren't that many Chinese people around in Second Life?

I'm not asking anyone to take a stand, take sides, or even have a voice.  What I'd like people to do is think a little more carefully before they attempt to use class, race, or gender as a form of humor.  That's the Raglan Shire I want to be associated with - one where every tiny is equal and no tiny need worry that the next "joke" will be an attack on them.

Edit: Removed name in quote. This is a public forum, no name calling please. Bo
Re-edit:  Um, what?  Kung-Fu Panda was the name of the movie; no one was being called a name.

[Xavian]

Hi folks. Xavian here, and if anyone here was honestly offended by this prank, then please accept my sincere apology. The joke was not intended at the expense of the Amish people. The joke was about the unlikelihood of it as a Raglan theme. I did not mean to disparage their way of life,, and have no problem with the Amish people or their beliefs. Live and let live. The "drab clothing"  part of the notice was really intended as a clue that this was indeed a prank and not an actual event.

As for "Be there or be Tiennemen Square", the event was never mocked or even discussed. It was simply a reference to a place. There are many places in the world where terrible things have happened, and many wonderful things in many of the same places. We have Mardis Gras despite the tragedies in New Orleans, and play at pirates even though these were people who engaged in vile despicable acts. But we do it in lighthearted fun and try not to dwell on the negative aspects that are so often a part of human nature and world history.

It has never been my intention to isolate or offend anyone, but to anyone who misunderstands the spirit in which comments are made in a very lighthearted community, you have my full apology.

[Chaffro]

Let's put one thing in perspective here: Tiananmen Square is a landmark in Beijing, not the general name of the protests made in 1989 (or 1976 for that matter) in that square. I would imagine that its use here was an Asian-themed pun on the 'be there or be square' line.

[Isolde]

.... but to anyone who misunderstands the spirit in which comments are made in a very lighthearted community....

I really felt great about your comments, Xavian, until this sentence.  Your apology rings hollow and false in the context of "I wasn't really wrong in any way, you (Karenza and Isolde) obviously misunderstand our lighthearted little community."

An apology should include assumption of responsibility and with this statement, you demonstrate the opposite and place the blame on people around you instead.  To be fair, I wasn't interested in apologies or punishment.  I was interested in drawing awareness to an issue that had instantiated twice in a short period of time and asking people to reconsider their stance on this form of humor.  So I can't really be offended (and I'm not).   I can, however, be disappointed that one of the "Voices of Raglan" chose this path instead of genuinely accepting responsibility for your actions.   People who speak for Raglan reflect on Raglan. 

[Zayn Till]

It certainly seems to me like he completely accepted responsibility for his actions and just about as well as one possibly can in a very well worded response.

In the 4 years since i started the shire, its always been about one thing. Community.  In that respect we have gone out of our way to make the place as friendly and welcoming a place to everyone as possible. We encourage folks to come together and actually be a part of what happens.. collaboration, creativity..people can actually shape what we do if they wish to participate. We try our best to make the land and tools and anything else folks might need available so people can add their creativity and ideas.

The People who do participate work VERY hard to have interesting activities ,events, games, music, builds for everyone else to enjoy. It's a lot of work (can feel like a 2nd full time job at times) but the folks hosting, building, organizing, scripting, animating, creating graphics and myself feel its well worth it since so many over the years have really seemed to enjoy all the things we've done. This month is Raglans 4th birthday celebration, next month is the 5th Art Walk, Theres still The Tiny Wild West Month, The 3rd Wootstock. the 5th Medieval fest, Shocktober, Showvember, etc etc to come.
None of what we do is for traffic or money or popularity. We know its just a small niche that most dip their feet in from time to time and then go on their way elsewhere.

We're just real people trying the best we can to do something we all really feel good about and hoping others will enjoy it as well.

Occasionally there might be a mistake made or something said that might raise an eyebrow.

It's going to happen in a large group of people from time to time. The only thing you can really do is try and communicate and get through it the best you can. People say stuff and people might get upset. hopefully they communicate and with luck they apologize a little human compassion and forgiveness ensues and then they move on.

The whole nature again of what we do (and have been doing for 4 years!!) is based on good will, silliness, friendship creativity and collaboration.
If folks aren't going to give us the benefit of the doubt then heck.....

And this is why my motto and my question to all is always..

Glass half empty or Glass half full?

[Karenza McCullough]

I had posted this with no expectation of apology or punishment.  When I wrote my first post, I didn't even know who came up with and/or supported the Amish "joke" described above.  I had hoped some tinies would take long enough to think about my question.

So if tinies are cute and silly, does that give us carte blanche to make fun of anyone or anything?

Sadly, the answer appears to be an almost universal "Yes!"  I've been a member of the Shire for years, and I was genuinely surprised that being silly now comes with a free pass to be mean, just so long as the group being made fun of isn't in earshot.  Cultures change over time, and I haven't seen this attitude in the Shire previously.  Before now, I could have agreed with Zayn about misunderstandings and benefit of the doubt.  Shire culture has changed evidently, and I am sad to be left behind.  It was quite surprising to be told that I had no sense of humor; it's not a failing typically ascribed to me.

As for Xavian's insulting non-apology that suggests I was not "honestly offended," it is the sort of stuff that American politicians love to spout. 

Chaff, if Xavian had meant his Tiananmen Square jest that way, I wish he would have said so in chat since I objected at that time to it.  And by the way, the Chinese Generation Y is sometimes referred to as the Tiananmen Square generation.

In conclusion, I have an answer to the question I posted earlier.  I had hoped that along the way to the answer, some tinies would be willing to think about what we jest about.  That didn't work out so well.  It brings to mind a band I saw years ago.  They sang ugly songs and made fun of everyone.  They claimed that was fine because no group was off limits to their brand of humor.  I left early.

[Isolde]

Thank you wikipedia!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology

"An example of a non-apology apology would be to say "I'm sorry that you felt insulted" to someone who has been offended by a statement. This apology does not admit that there was anything wrong with the remarks made, and, additionally, it insinuates that the person taking offense was excessively thin-skinned or irrational in taking offense at the remarks in the first place."


Quoted:
"It has never been my intention to isolate or offend anyone, but to anyone who misunderstands the spirit in which comments are made in a very lighthearted community, you have my full apology." - Xavian

[Tris Porthos]

If I'm being honest, it does read like the apology comes with the qualifier that it's the reader's fault for being offended because they misunderstand the spirit in which the comments were made. However, I'm not so sure that spirit really plays a role in a joke's acceptability.

This may have been intended as a lighthearted joke at the expense of a community who have 'a culture so unlike SL', but it's still at the expense of a group of people and it wouldn't be so far fetched for descendants of this community, friends of members of this community or actual members of this community (as Isolde pointed out) to be in Second life. Not that it really matters whether someone within the community is around to be offended. If a racist joke is told and no one is around to be offended, is it still racist?

It's important to remember that the sending of notices in a group is not typically granted to everyone. It is usually granted to officers or other representatives of a group. If people representing a group make announcements that are closed minded, or appear otherwise harmful, whatever their actual intention, then it makes the group as a whole look bad, and it makes me, as a member of this group look bad too.

The Tiananmen Square comment at least would only have been seen by people currently online, and not available in the notice history or for people to log on and have it pop up on their screen. Despite it's long history as a location, I would personally have exercised caution when referencing it for obvious reasons. Just as I would exercise caution when talking about the World Trade Center, despite it having been an important part of American business for almost 30 years. I certainly wouldn't use either in a joke.

I know that managing a group of sims, a lot of people, and several groups is a lot of work. I really appreciate everything that has been done in building a community, building the sims and organizing so many events. It makes it so much worse when a careless comment casts a shadow on all the positive work that has been done.

[Catten Carter]

I think all parties have had their say (and some of their friends too).

With silliness comes humor, and humor is hard, as it's always different from person to person what they find funny and what their level of tolerance is. Like Zayn said, glass half full or glass half empty. With the tiny community, it's glass half full, and things should be taken in the light spirit.

There are no ill will behind any of the events people and no intent to make fun of groups or minorities, only a lot of sweet and hard work, and we appreciate it all.

[Bo Fiddlesticks]

A general notice: if a site admin edits a post, you don't just edit it back, you contact them. Thank you.

[Xavian]

This has really gone on more than long enough. If you have a problem with me, so be it. I am not trying to make enemies of it. I truely belive that the Friends of Raglan Shire are my friends and in many cases, my family. I respect even the ones I don't always agree with.

But I ask that if you have a problem with me, that you do not indict the entirety of Raglan in your accusation and I further ask that you do not put words in my mouth by re-translating what I say to what I must obviously mean but wasn't apparent in the original wording. There is no need to proscribe meaning to it that was not there to begin with.

Now let's take a deep breath, and move on. There are better things to talk about.

[Bo Fiddlesticks]

Since one of the most outspoken participants of this thread has decided to delete their forum account and the discussion doesn't deliver new insights, this thread will now be closed.